Burnout, Boundaries, Blind Spots + Resiliency with Pam Cass and Natalie Davis (Part 1)

The moment you say yes and your stomach drops, you’re not being dramatic, you’re getting data. We talk about that exact feeling and what it reveals about burnout, overcommitment, and the sneaky way “side quests” steal your time and energy. Pamela Cass and I also share the wild coincidence of booking the same day on a new YouTube coaching show, then realising what that actually meant: zero hiding and full visibility.

From there we get honest about the coaching paradox. We coach for a living, but we can be the worst at coaching ourselves because our blind spots feel normal. We dig into what it’s like to have a skilled coach shine a flashlight into the corners, name what we’ve been avoiding, and push us toward real leadership presence. We also unpack Enneagram patterns, especially the Enneagram 9 peacekeeper vibe, people pleasing, and “self-forgetting” that looks like saying yes so nobody is upset, then feeling resentment later.

We go deeper into resilience tools that actually work: a 14-day “say no” challenge, boundaries that protect your goals, energy management for speakers and leaders who tend to leak their life force, and shadow work that integrates the desire to be lovable with the power of being willing to be unlovable when a hard boundary is needed. We even touch on feminine and masculine energy dynamics and why being witnessed without words can crack you wide open.

The Quiet Gift: A Journey of Self Worth and Resilience is now available for download as an audible.  Check it out!

Transcript

Why We Need To Reignite

SPEAKER_00 0:06

All of us reach a point in time where we are depleted and need to somehow find a way to reignite the fire within. But how do we spark that flame? Welcome to Reignite Resilience, where we will venture into the heart of the human spirit. We'll discuss the art of reigniting our passion and strategies to stoke our enthusiasm. And now here are your hosts, Natalie Davis and Pamela Cass.

SPEAKER_02 0:41

All right, welcome back to another episode of Reignite Resilience. I'm your co-host Natalie Davis and I'm so excited to be back with all of you. And joining us is your co-host, Pam Cass. I don't know why I couldn't say that today.

SPEAKER_01 0:58

I just I don't know. The countdown happens on the screen and I just start getting giggly. I have no idea. Like what? Like what's funny?

Side Quests And Overcommitment

SPEAKER_02 1:07

Like we already started talking about it. That's your comfort. I was gonna say, it's like your security blanket is with laughter. It's like, you know what? I'm going to make myself calm and comfortable in this space. It is. It is. It's like wallet is literally five seconds of silence. That's it. Not much. Not much. But that countdown feels like forever, Natalie. It's literally five seconds. But you know, here we are. Oh my gosh. Well, I love it. We've had some experiences. What my daughters like to call side quests is what I reference to them as. And I feel like 2026 has been a year just filled with side quest after side quest after side quest. But girl, it's not April.

SPEAKER_01 1:54

I understand. We haven't even started April yet. We're all we're not even the first quarter's not even done. Don't underestimate the ability to get some things done.

SPEAKER_02 2:03

Listen, listen. If you want to do it, you can get it done. But also it can become a challenge, which is, I think, part of what has popped up for me, right? Like you get to doing all these things. It's like, and another side quest. And another side quest. And another one of them does that.

SPEAKER_01 2:17

And then this.

The Surprise Same-Day Booking

SPEAKER_02 2:18

And maybe this. And maybe that. Exactly. Well, you and I had an opportunity to actually participate in a YouTube show here recently. And unbeknownst to us, like you have your schedule, I have my schedule, and then we have our combined schedule for the Reignite Resilience podcast and production and connecting with our guests and all of that. And so they reached out to us independently with dates. I am assuming this is what your process looks like. I was given a couple of dates. I said, here's a date that works, and here's a time that works. Plug me in, bada boom, bada bing, you're in, right? And here's here's preparation to record. Well, and I get there and and we're chatting and we're going through sound check and light check and all this stuff. And and they're like, Well, you know, are you gonna stay for lunch? Because Pam's coming at this afternoon. And I said, What? Exactly. They were like, it worked out perfectly that y'all both chose the exact same day. Like, what are the odds? I was like, pretty high, actually. There, the the odds are pretty high.

SPEAKER_01 3:21

They're pretty high because we're in alignment in the universe, and it just works out exactly, exactly.

SPEAKER_02 3:27

Well, I thought it worked out great, and that's that's what I considered like a side quest because you know, we had this opportunity, this extended invitation to us for an appearance on a newly formed YouTube podcast show, podcast style show that's coming out. And I said yes before thinking through it. I don't know what your process was, but I I said yes, and as the date got closer, I questioned what was I thinking.

SPEAKER_01 3:55

Yeah. Yes. I said yes because of who was the doing the asking. And because I have such deep respect for her and I know that she's I really think she's genius in how she coaches and just what she's able to do and get get from people that I was like, oh yeah, you know, count me in. Like I'm just excited to, you know, be part of it. Yeah, absolutely. So yeah, so I when I got to that day, I was like, what's this gonna be like? What did I just say yes to? What did I say yes to?

Vulnerability And Getting Coached

SPEAKER_02 4:27

For me, it was it was well before the day of. Day of, I think I was okay. I will tell you the one thing that crossed my mind the day of, which people will just laugh at this. But it was actually just like in the preparation, just the prep work that goes in and the connection that goes in prior to the show. And I had that moment of, okay, this is it. Like, no hiding. Like you are about to put all your shit out there for the world to see. And it's like, okay, you want to get coached, you're getting coached. And I think that that's a a huge lesson. At least it was a huge lesson for me, just in going through this entire process, is I've been able to see how poorly you can coach yourself, right? Like you, we this is what we do for a living. We coach other people and we help other people and we see tremendous success in their lives. When it's our opportunity to coach ourselves, we're not necessarily the best person that's cut out for that, right?

SPEAKER_01 5:18

No, we're we're too close, we're too familiar with ourselves. Exactly. Exactly. Or maybe not familiar enough. Both at the same time. Is that possible? I think we did at the same time. Yeah. 100%, 100%. So so that yeah, that makes sense because it was in the ultimate test of vulnerability. Because again, I mean, I thought it was, you know, write in the book about, oh, here's my childhood. There's all my little skeletons in my closet. But then this is my adult version. I mean, that was when I was a child. So it's like, whatever, they're not gonna really judge me. But as an adult, it's like, hmm, it's gonna get real.

SPEAKER_02 5:57

And not even like young adult. This is like present-day where you at, where you going type of stuff.

SPEAKER_01 6:02

Like this is I'm already halfway on the other side. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 6:05

So it's like, you know, there's not a lot of runway left for me. This so it's that's that's the that's the piece. And I think that's where I started to have like the freak out was in recognizing that vulnerability. And I know that that should be empowering. And that's what we teach, it's what we talk about, it's how we coach, like being empowered by having that ability to be authentic, to be vulnerable, to share. And truly, like, especially from the leadership standpoint, like you're so well respected when you're able to stay in that space and really just own your truth. But when it's like pencil to paper, like let's get it done. It's like, okay, I'm about to let the entire world see behind the curtains of my business. For me, it was my business. Uh it was a professional challenge that I brought forward. That's not right. A professional opportunity that I brought forward. It's not a challenge. I am building something that I that I like and want. And so an opportunity. And so getting coached in that space, I was like, oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_01 7:07

And she doesn't. She goes in all the spaces. She like has a giant flashlight and she is wandering around.

SPEAKER_02 7:16

I mean, uh, it's like a magnifying glass and a flashlight.

SPEAKER_01 7:20

I'm like, get out of there. And a flashlight going in all the corners and crevices and exposing stuff that we just, you know, become blind spot. They're just blind spots for us. We just don't see it anymore. And they were like, wait, what? And she'd say stuff, and I'd be like, it was like a light switch going on, like, oh. Exactly. Oh.

Blind Spots And Self-Coaching Limits

SPEAKER_02 7:39

Exactly. And it's, you know, it's it's and I think not even that they're often we're blind to those blind spots or we just don't see them. Oftentimes they're like, I stuck that in the corner to let it stay there. Let's leave it there. Like, I don't want to do that. I don't want to deal with that right now or ever. But here you come with your telescope or your magnifying glass, and you found it. Pulling it out. But that's what I love because I am in the exact same space. So it just for our listeners, so you're up to speed. We are talking about the fabulous Rachel Jane Groover. And she is an author, a speaker, a coach, a powerful businesswoman, has built an eight-figure business, an immigrant to the country, and has built exactly what she wants and has helped other people build and create the lives of their dreams as well. And so just an amazing powerhouse, someone that I have admired for many, many years. Definitely someone that I deem as a mentor in my space and in my life. And as Pam mentioned, having the opportunity with to work with her one-on-one, I was like, yep, absolutely. And just so you all know, Pam and I did not, we are not appearing on the show together. We just happened to book the same day. So I'm whatever day. I don't know how the order is going to be in terms of releasing, but I had my segment in my episode, and Pam has her episode as well. And from what I can gather, Pam and I haven't done a really debrief, a deep debrief on it. From what I can gather, it's not like our shared business that we're business partners in. It's like the other businesses that we're running or life in general.

Enneagram Nine And People Pleasing

SPEAKER_01 9:15

Is that yeah, yeah, totally, totally different. And so it's gonna be really interesting. Because mine was less about business and more about visibility. I well, I guess visibility in my business, saying no and self-forgetting. And that one was a funny one because she asked me the question. She goes, Are there places where you're self-forgetting? And I'm like, I'll forget myself. I'll go get massages, I'll work out six days a week. And she goes, That's not what self-forgetting is. She goes, Are you saying yes to stuff because you don't want people to be upset or not like you? Are you? And it just was like, Well, there was this one time I was dating this guy for three years, and we always did what he wanted, even though he asked me what I wanted to do, and I said, Oh, whatever you want to do. And then I started to resent him to the point where I was like, Well, I'm not doing this anymore. This is stupid because all we do is what he wants to do. Well, I created that. Yeah, that kind of set that up. You were like, Here, let me make it a bad job. And then I got I crawled into it and then I got upset about it the way I made it. And so it was such an interesting take. And then I thought about, gosh, where are there other places in my life where I'm self-forgetting, where I don't want to upset people? Because what I learned also that day was that I'm an Anneagram nine, which is the peacekeeper, the people pleaser, the no boundaries. I want everyone to be happy and kumbaya and la da da. And when I took the unshakable focus retreat for three days, I was like, I'm not a nine. I'm not a nine. No, I'm not a nine. I'm a three. And I am a three when I am relaxed and have no stress. And when we're in Mexico during our planning weeks, I'm a three, which is we're creative and we plan, and that's me when I'm relaxed. But my normal is the peacekeeper and not using my voice, right? Which is my whole thing about being invisible. And so at the end, when you guys watch the episodes, she gives you a 14-day challenge. And so for 14 days, I have to say no to things that I absolutely 100% do not want to do, and it's not in alignment with what my goals are. And I've had to do a few of them, and it's been real shaky. Where I'm like, oh, I'll say no, and then I'm like, well, maybe, maybe I'll do that. Yes, exactly. Only in 15 days. I can start to say and then I'm just like, no, girl, don't do it. Because I don't want the wrath of Rachel Jane on me for not doing 100%. So yeah, yeah. I love that. So that was me.

SPEAKER_02 12:10

I love that. Well, you know, it's so interesting when you talk about like any agram now because I think she thought that I was a nine as well. And and I have to go back and pull mine. And it's been almost a decade or maybe even more since I've done it. I want to dive in because I will say, no offense, nine is not ever the number that I was like, oh, I wish I was that one. Sorry. I know me either person. There is like this, you know, the the person that gets the results, and it's type of like the the performative type of person, right? Like that's kind of the and I think that's three.

SPEAKER_01 12:42

So you thought you were maybe a four or because a four is the performative. That's what Rachel Jane is a four.

SPEAKER_02 12:48

And I had four envy for a very long time. I was like, why can't I just be a four? That was not possible.

SPEAKER_01 12:53

So is a four uh one of the ones that the seven goes to? Oh, possibly. I'll need to take a look at it.

SPEAKER_02 13:00

Because if I am a seven, so we've we've determined that I'm either a three or a seven. And so I need to go back and take a look and or do an assessment because the other thing that came out of that is during that time frame that I that I did my Enneagram sessions and I did this, this was not online. There are tests that you can do online. It kind of gives you an idea. It's not as robust as actually working with someone that has that's an expert in the space. And so when I worked with her, I was in a different place in life, right? Like I had young kids, um I just dealt with the passing of my parents. I was dealing a lot with like just mental stability on my own and battling depression and and all of that, right? Like it's kind of like that whole space. And and so Rachel Jane was like, Oh yeah, you were probably definitely hovering in that space during that time because you were like, I just need to keep the boat afloat, right? Like, just no one you're just survival. In survival mode. That's exactly what it was. And so now that I've worked through that and she's like, You're like different. That's not who you are.

SPEAKER_01 14:05

So you maybe were a nine, and you have okay, and you've been working with her for like 10 years, so there's hope from the other. I have not done fashion on that. So I don't know. I'm not sure. Yeah. I think it is something people that are not familiar with it, there are books out there that you can read that walk you through the different types. It's how you how you normally show up, but then you've got these counterpoints where when you're relaxed, you will go into a different type of anneagram. And when you are stressed, you go into a a different one as well. And when I'm stressed, I go in, I'm a six, which is we you go into I need to research, I need data, I need blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. That's so totally neat.

SPEAKER_02 14:51

And it's like, okay. You're like, hold on, let me look at that. I'm pretty sure I have a book on that. Hold on, just a moment. And I'm like, yeah, I've already decided and I've moved on.

SPEAKER_01 15:00

Like yeah, so and and so the the work becomes leaning into the discomfort of whatever your kind of your walls are in your Aneagram. So for a nine, it's saying no and setting boundaries. And so that is something I am been working on, but man, when you s do it, when you go against whatever your box is, it is so shaky and uncomfortable. And you want so bad to be like, okay, no, I didn't mean no, I mean yes. Because, you know, if somebody who wants to be liked by people and so she worked with me through how to be on stage, because she's like, on stage, you want everyone to like you, and it's all lovey, and you're a you're a diffuser when you're a nine, which means you need your energy, you give your energy to other people, which then makes you exhausted. And so she's like, No, you need to be the most important person in the room when you are on a stage, when you're coaching, when you are teaching, when you're in those spaces, because people are looking for you to be that person. And so I'm like, but I don't want to be arrogant. And she goes, That is not what this is about. That's not what this is about. Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 16:17

What I love about that body of work as well is like, and and I this goes with any of, you know, any of these assessments that we do when we really hone into who we are and how we're showing up, is that they're always running parallel to everything else as well, right? Like your Enneagram is at play, that's kind of the foundational, it's in the background. It's like the motherboard, right? It's just going and and we don't really think about it.

SPEAKER_01 16:40

But then you also have like your shadows that pop up, or just any time that was a very definite uh ho, like a thigh because that did come up for me.

SPEAKER_02 16:55

The reality of it, right? And then and then weave into that, like if you're in a space where you're making a decision, or it's a high-stakes decision, or like you said, if you're on stage. And the reality is like when you are speaking or doing anything on stage, you are performing, right? Like you are the main talent in that space. And what do you have to deliver in terms of value? And if it's a musical, it's the performance itself. If you're a speaker, it's the value that comes out of the content that you're sharing with those that are in the audience. So it's always this performative piece, but then it's like, are you just giving it all away that you're like, and then you're just drained. It's like I poured so much into everyone and it was lovely. And I need four days to recharge now because I have nothing left.

Shadow Work And Being Unlovable

SPEAKER_01 17:38

Do you remember when every time we would travel, I would get sick. Yes, I would come back and I would be sick. And it was because I was leaking my energy. And so, you know, working with Rachel Jane, she taught me how to be more contained in my energy. So I don't do that. But it was like I had no idea. And I just I laugh about the shadow work because I literally like a week or two before this thing that we did with Rachel Jane, I met with Amara, who's my coach, and we were talking about shadow work, and the whole I am loved versus I am unlovable came up. And so she goes, I want to be loved by people. And she goes, Well, are there times where you want to be unlovable? And so then I started thinking about it. I was like, Well, yeah, there are times when I'm gonna set a hard boundary and I'm okay if they don't love me in that moment. And so she made me visualize myself kind of in my Danteen, imagining that on one side there was unlovable and on the other side there was lovable, and you're in the center, and it's okay to for both of those to exist. And so the problem is that when with shadow work, when we want to be loved so badly and we're trying to push away the unlovable thing, we're not showing up as our authentic self. We're saying yes to everybody, we're people pleasing because we want to be loved so badly, but then we're not being our authentic self because in our mind we're wanting to say, I don't want to do that. I don't want to go on a 14-mile hike every weekend. What I'd like to do is sometimes get a bucket of popcorn and go to a movie and put my feet exactly. But I didn't say no because I want to be loved. Yeah, and so it's it's such an interesting thing. And there's so many shadow works, you know. I don't want to be stupid, I want to be whatever, yeah, whatever it is. It's being introduced to all of this, it's such incredible work to start to like dig into and just basically self-journey, learn about yourself.

Tattoo Ceremony And Light With Dark

SPEAKER_02 19:46

Oh my gosh. It's the most amazing introspective work that I think exists. And there's different frameworks and modalities that Rachel Jane herself will introduce into her practice. And then she's very clear, she does not have to be the expert in everything. And so she brings in other experts that are within different spaces. And when you talk about like the shadow work, I think the important thing, again, there are many books out there, go and read them. We're not professionally trained in doing any type of shadow work or training, but there are resources out there. When you think about like the importance of like when you say the opposite of being smart is being stupid. And so we have like, especially with I think school age children, and I can at least make this an I statement. I remember like when I was in school, how important it was for you to be seen as smart, not just in the eyes of my parents, but in the eyes of my teachers, in the eyes of my peers. And it's like you are going to be the smart person, right? And it's you're taking the AP classes, you're taking, you know, you're making sure that you're on the honor roll, all of these things. And it's like you've got to be smart. But the shadow is understanding that there are some times where you may be dumb or areas that you may not be as smart in. And all of a sudden the power that comes with that, because the two have to exist together. That is actually the whole meaning behind the very first tattoo that I got. And it was um, I don't think I've talked about that on the show. The very first tattoo that I got, and it's it's definitely the shadow, my shadow self. And uh, it was an experience that I would highly encourage and recommend to people that are prepared to go into this space. I have a fabulous artist that is in Las Vegas, and I connected with her on Instagram. It's amazing. I connect with the most amazing people on Instagram. I just shoot my shot. I'm gonna hit you up in the DMs. So just know I'm DM you. And so I hit her up in the DMs. I was like, I love what you're doing. And so she does a spiritual practice around her tattoo work. And you go in, you do a Reiki clearing and healing practice. She actually did a reading for me before I got there. And she and I had never met face to face ever until the actual day. Of the artwork being done, and I should say ceremony. And so I got there, I got settled in, and she's like, okay, so here's the thing. I I did some work around you before you got here, and she like read me my life in that moment. And I was like, how are you? How do you even know this?

SPEAKER_01 22:21

Like, wait a minute here. Like, my house. Like, what's happening?

SPEAKER_02 22:25

Do you know all of this already? So she had all of these downloads before I even got there. The experience itself was seven and a half, eight hours total. I mean, you're talking like spiritual work. The tattoo was 15, 20 minutes. So everything else was like just the spiritual work with her. Beautiful process that we went through. We took a break for snacks in between. You got to take a bathroom break. Like it is a whole process, right? Yeah. And so I didn't go in with a peace in mind. I just went in and I said, I'm going to trust the process. I did my own work and clearing and protection and all of that before going in there. And I said, I am open to whatever my angel's guides lead us to create. And so I have a tattoo of both a butterfly and a moth that represents both the light and the dark, right? The positive pieces of ourselves that we like to talk about, like the butterfly, right? That's the external, like, hey, look at me, world. Like it, I'm a beautiful butterfly. How wonderful is it? And then also looking, you can't have that light without the dark. And so that's where the moth comes in. And there is so much beauty when you look at a moth as well, but it's the opposite of the butterfly when you truly look at it. So shadow work is a powerful piece. It it was something that that has popped up for me in my life. It's something that I continue to work through. I'm not certified or trained in it. You are aware of it. Like when you start to see things pop up, you are very much aware of like, oh shh.

SPEAKER_01 23:52

100%.

unknown 23:53

Yeah.

Feminine And Masculine Being Witnessed

SPEAKER_01 23:53

Yeah. And I'm actually going, I have the unshakable love retreat next weekend. And it's all about the shadow. We go through the shadow work and everything. So I'll be in that next weekend, I think. I love it. I love that. Which I'm excited because it's every time I go to her retreats, even if I've gone through it before, it's a completely different experience because I'm a totally different person than I was when I did it last year. It's yeah, that's which is kind of fun to watch.

SPEAKER_02 24:22

Exactly. It is interesting that you said that you're excited about it because I remember the first time you went through the process and you were like, the very last session is the one on relationships. They she can keep that. I might skip that session. I don't know if I want to be there. And I was, I never say a word, y'all. So just so you know, I was like, okay, Pam.

SPEAKER_01 24:43

I will say it's the one retreat that I I mean the the unshakable inner peace, the silent retreat. Yes, that was powerful. And I did cry in that. I was like, the unshakable love's the only one I cried in. That one I cried in, the unshakable love. And it was when she walks you through being in your feminine. Because so we had about six men in the in the room, and we probably had about 40 women in the room, and she teaches you how to stand in your feminine, taught the men how to stand in their masculine. And then the men were lined up in the front of the room, and the women got in lines, and we had to go up to the main and stand in front of them in our feminine. We don't say anything as they're standing in their masculine. And as soon as I stood in front of them, I started to ball. And I'm like, what is this about? And everyone I went to, everyone because we had to go through all of them. I cried with every one of them. And you know, as Rachel and Jane and I talked about, it was like, I've had to be the feminine and the masculine. And I think I'm gonna say it's an I statement, but I think this is something that we see in women today in today's society that we have had to carry the masculine energy and the feminine energy, especially in the professional world. And so when you uh strip away the masculine and you just are in your feminine, it is such a vulnerable place and it's a scary place. And the emotions were just uh completely intense. And so it was really such an eye-opening thing for me because I was like, oh snap, I am I was gonna say the pro that was probably the emotional buildup of being witnessed in your feminine and your feminine only.

SPEAKER_02 26:29

No words, no rationale, no justification, no giggling, right? Five seconds that leads up to getting giggly and comfortable. It is you just be there in your feminine and be witnessed by this is the other heart challenging piece, I think a man that's standing there in his masculine. And let me tell you, like, we're talking about masculine from the energetic space, not like a machismo type of like type of uh energy. It's definitely like a masculine energy presence, energetic presence. And this is not something that's taught in like present-day anything, unless you're seeking that out. And the moment that you're in the presence of a man that is in his masculine, I will start to shrink immediately. I'm like, well, where's the room for me? Because the majority of the energy that I typically bring, just like you mentioned, Pam, it's like my feminine feminine with a lot of masculine, because here I am. Like, and that's what I've kind of been programmed to believe. And so when there's a true masculine man in the space, I'm like, I don't know how I'm supposed to show up here. And I don't know. I don't know what to do. Yeah, you know. Exactly. Exactly.

Final Takeaways And Subscribe

SPEAKER_01 27:37

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And and I think the same thing with women is men have been, oh, you need to have this feminine presence too. It's say, and it's so it's very interesting. So we are all confused. We are masculine, feminine, we're all confused, we're all trying to figure this out. I am 55, y'all, and I am I'm just now figuring it out.

SPEAKER_00 27:59

Thank you for joining us today on the Reignite Resilience Podcast. We hope you had some aha moments and learned a few new real life ideas to fuel the flames of passion. Please subscribe on your favorite streaming platform, like or download your favorite episodes, and of course, share with your friends and family. We look forward to seeing you again next time on Reignite Resilience.