Patience, Culture, Critical Thinking + Resiliency with Jeff Wenninger (part 2)

Jeff Wenninger's journey from hockey player to 33-year law enforcement veteran provides a fascinating lens through which to examine police culture in America. Drawing from his unique background, Wenninger offers candid insights into the critical gaps plaguing modern policing – particularly the absence of critical thinking in a profession where split-second decisions can have life-altering consequences.

The conversation takes a sobering turn when Wenninger reveals that 36% of officer-involved shootings involve individuals experiencing mental health crises. He challenges the standard approach of multiple officers giving simultaneous commands with weapons drawn, noting how this often escalates rather than de-escalates volatile situations. His philosophy – "Just because you can doesn't mean you should" – encapsulates his belief that legal justification alone shouldn't determine an officer's actions.

Wenninger's global research into policing models offers hope for improvement. His time with London's Metropolitan Police revealed striking differences in approaches to suspects with non-firearm weapons, while Nordic countries' comprehensive selection and training processes demonstrate alternative pathways to building better police forces. These comparisons highlight both the challenges and possibilities for American law enforcement reform.

Perhaps most powerful is Wenninger's personal story of navigating racial tensions within the force shortly after the Los Angeles riots, and his commitment to community engagement despite ridicule from fellow officers. These experiences shaped his understanding that effective policing requires seeing shared humanity across divides and building genuine connections with community members.

Now as founder and CEO of Law Enforcement Consultants and author of the forthcoming book "On Thin Ice," Wenninger works to implement management best practices that can transform policing for the 21st century. His message combines realism about institutional resistance to change with hope that, with patience and commitment, law enforcement can evolve to better serve all communities.

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Chapters

• 0:00 Reigniting Passion and Resilience
• 6:47 Critical Thinking in Law Enforcement
• 14:32 Mental Health Crisis Response Challenges
• 19:24 Lessons from Global Policing Models
• 22:17 Building Community Trust Through Engagement
• 25:08 Patience and Personal Growth

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:06

All of us reach a point in time where we are depleted and need to somehow find a way to reignite the fire within. But how do we spark that flame? Welcome to Reignite Resilience, where we will venture into the heart of the human spirit. Resilience where we will venture into the heart of the human spirit. We'll discuss the art of reigniting our passion and strategies to stoke our enthusiasm. And now here are your hosts, natalie Davis and Pamela Cass.

Speaker 2: 0:41

I think that's such a huge piece because you hit the nail on the head the critical thinking element. Like just we as a society, I don't think that we slow down enough and allow ourselves that space just for the processing of right. So the critical thinking piece is a piece that's missing in a lot of segments of our world today. But what I love that you shared as you went into this experience is the curiosity and I talk a lot about curiosity when I'm teaching within the real estate space when you go in with a level of curiosity where you're just here. I just want to learn. I'm anxious to know more, learn more, grow, expand, do that reflection, the internal, because that becomes the introspective work as well. Right, and so, having that level of curiosity, I don't have all of the answers, I don't even know what I'm stepping into, but I want to learn. I think that propels you so much further at the end of the day.

Speaker 3: 1:33

You know it's not accepting the status quo as well, having the courage to question the status quo and what has been the way it's been done forever and asking why is that? And, internally and externally, having the discussions with yourself and with others that perhaps there could be a better way. And unfortunately, if you want a challenge, try to have those conversations in the law enforcement culture. Exactly, it's tough. You know what you were talking about. Sometimes. There's oftentimes a gap of critical thinking.

Speaker 3: 2:04

Well, listen, that void is quite large in law enforcement and it's in a career that probably least likely can afford to have it be absent. You need law enforcement officers that are critical thinkers, that have moral reasoning, you know their ethical decision-making, they're problem solvers. These are the types of characteristics that you're looking for in a law enforcement officer. But unfortunately, in law enforcement, when you get hired, it's not a selection process. It's a selection process. If you don't have a criminal record, your finances are in order and you basically been an upstanding citizen, then you got a decent chance of getting hired. That's really not how that should be done. Now, when you're talking about that critical role of somebody that's going to be serving the community in diverse communities under stressful, rapidly unfolding tactical scenarios that a bad decision can have a very tragic outcome, one that could be avoided.

Speaker 4: 3:03

Right, absolutely. So let's talk about the work you do now, because it sounds like this is exactly what you're talking about. You saw what was missing or is missing in law enforcement, and it looks like you're trying to kind of close that gap a little bit. So is that what got you into it, like what you experienced over the 33 years in law enforcement?

Speaker 3: 3:23

Well, I felt that I did 33 years in law enforcement. What a waste if I didn't take that experience and allow others to benefit from it. So that's what motivated me and propelled me to become the founder and CEO of Law Enforcement Consultants, where we work to implement management best practices for law enforcement, because, although there is no national standard across the board for law enforcement in this country, there are management best practices that, universally applied, will make law enforcement much more successful moving forward in the 21st century. It's about reducing liability, being more operationally effective and efficient it's really important and basically maximizing the ability to have an optimal outcome. Now I'll tell you one of the most challenging times that we have right now is the reality of officer-involved shootings. 36% of officer-involved shootings in this country involve an individual who's suffering a mental health crisis 36%. That's a lot, and if we utilize the traditional police tactics that were taught in the police academy, we're not going to have optimal outcomes. So we need to change our mindset and how we view our responsibility when we respond to those types of calls, not only having the knowledge of how to identify that that's what we're dealing with, but also knowing better how to handle them, but, most importantly, having some self-awareness of how somebody who's suffering a mental health crisis is going to respond to a number of officers in uniform generally, and oftentimes making multiple verbal commands simultaneously with guns drawn, tasers drawn with a red dot on their chest and beanbag shotguns. And we'll call that attempts at de-escalation. But actually what we're really doing is we're escalating the situation.

Speaker 3: 5:17

Is it any secret or surprise to people that these end with unnecessary deaths oftentimes? Don't get me wrong. I'm not here to tell you that police officers should be pacifists. There are times that law enforcement officers have got to use lethal force, but that shouldn't be their go-to. There needs to be an understanding, because oftentimes this is the problem in law enforcement Just because you can doesn't mean you should. So just because the codified law would protect you, the utilization of lethal force it doesn't mean that it's the right thing to do in that moment. And I had a number of those types of circumstances during my career that I didn't resort to lethal force because I didn't need to. It would have been an in-policy shooting. It would have been justified. So that's what we expect of our law enforcement officers those critical decisions under stressful circumstances.

Speaker 4: 6:08

But if they don't have the critical thinking skills, like you were raised and modeled, they don't even know how to do it. They just are instinctively going with the force instead of the critical thinking.

Speaker 3: 6:20

Right, and it has a lot to do with training. And then, even if we're training everybody to do things properly, if the police culture in the organization does not match the training, I always say that culture eats training for lunch. So you will see officers act out consistent to the culture, even when their training is contradictory to what the culture is telling them to do.

Speaker 4: 6:44

How do you change the culture? Is that even possible?

Speaker 2: 6:47

Well, and it's interesting because I think that's the exact mission that you're on, jeff, like what you're working to create right now, even with the years of experience that you've had within law enforcement, is truly in the direction of changing the culture of law enforcement. If I'm not mistaken, that sounds like the mission that you're on.

Speaker 3: 7:05

Well, yeah, very much so, and it's not just with my company, law Enforcement Consultants. I have a forthcoming book. It's called On Thin Ice, and I came up with that title for two reasons. It's about my hockey background and how my hockey background influenced who I became as an adult and the values that I took into my law enforcement career, most importantly, my work ethic to always strive for excellence.

Speaker 3: 7:34

I bleed blue. I love law enforcement, but I'm honest about where law enforcement has been, where it currently is and what needs to be done to get us where we need to go to be successful moving forward in the 21st century. And that's what I talk about in my book. Yes, I talk about my unique background that I explained already. I talk about my professional experiences and my practical insights and then I get my actionable solutions on what I believe could be helpful to be successful moving forward.

Speaker 3: 8:06

And it's not me telling the world this is what needs to be done. It's really about fostering this discussion, creating the dialogue, because I've always said it's not about being right, it's about getting it right, and that requires that you have as many diverse opinions and backgrounds and experience levels at the table when you're discussing any issue, and law enforcement needs to open itself up to that and stop imposing its authority on the communities that they serve, but actually make the communities part of the organization, and not just in theory but actually in practice, where they have a say in how things are going to be done. Because ultimately, isn't that who our ultimate boss is? The communities that we serve.

Speaker 2: 8:53

That you're serving, yeah, so going beyond, like risk mitigation and risk management right, because you can do training and teaching on that. Like this is probably what's safe and you have it from the practicum standpoint. But you're stepping into best practices, that creates a new culture and it's community by community, right, like that's the reality. It's not what you like. If you're offering this in LA County, that looks completely different than when you're in Ohio, where you know middle America, USA, it's going to look completely different. And so, understanding that that is a true living, breathing relationship that is created to kind of meld and create and have this bonded relationship, which I think is ultimately where we started. There's a riff that has created along the way, but I believe that we can get back there. That's my thought process, but I don't work in that space. Don't work in the space.

Speaker 3: 9:48

Everybody should be hopeful because, you know, in writing my book, I did a lot of research. I went over to Europe and I went to London and I spent some time with the Metropolitan London Police, which is very different because they don't have the prevalence of firearms in their society. Their officers, unless they're a specialized entity within the organization, do not carry firearms.

Speaker 2: 10:11

But a huge like wall between citizens and the right.

Speaker 3: 10:16

But it's interesting because if you well London or England and Wales, they had five, five officer involved shootings five. Now people are going to say, well, that's because the citizens don't carry guns True, but they have a different mindset in regards to what their role is, where we have an unbelievable number of officer-involved shootings in this country when a suspect's armed with a weapon other than a firearm, like a knife, a hatchet, a bat, whatever right and the number of officer-involved shootings that occur here under those circumstances that don't occur there because they don't have the firearms. They have a complete different mindset. But I would suggest they have a better track record. But I would suggest they have a better track record than us in resolving those types of situations. Better Because, if you look at the data, we have a higher incidence of officers injuries in handling people with weapons other than firearms than they do over there in the UK. So there's something that we can learn from them.

Speaker 3: 11:18

And if you look at the Nordic countries, as I spoke about earlier, you talk about who you hire. It may not necessarily be so much about who you hire as much as it's about how you hire. So over there you, generally speaking, go through an undergraduate criminal justice program during your training and then they incorporate the police training and the tactics and the firearms into that. We're talking two and three years training and during that training you're being evaluated to see if you have these characteristics that we spoke of that are indicative of somebody that's going to be successful in law enforcement. That's huge.

Speaker 3: 11:58

Are you a problem solver? Do you have moral reasoning? Are you able to perform under stress? Do you respond well to training? Do you have an open mind to accepting other perspectives and other points of view? All of those, all these things are occurring while they're going through this training and then, and only then, if they've demonstrated that they have all these characteristics and they perform to a standard that's required in that training, do they get hired. I think there's something that can be learned from that 100%.

Speaker 4: 12:29

Much higher barrier to entry in those countries. Yeah, wow.

Speaker 2: 13:28

Well, at least the character of the individuals that are on the front line, right, because, and again, I've never served as an officer or any type of law enforcement position, but I'm imagining that the moment that you don't want to realize and look over that your partner and you are not on the same page from a moral standpoint is not the time that you need to have that realization. So, at least knowing that you're on the same field, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3: 13:51

And that is a reality. And I'll share an experience with you. When I was first working at 77th Division and it was not much more than a year after the riots, and I was patrolling in 77th Division in a community that basically, just you know, exploded in the violence that it did, and it wasn't, let's be honest, it wasn't about the not guilty verdicts, that was the catalyst, but it was about decades of mistreatment from the police in those communities. And we're talking just over a year. I came to work one day and my partner wasn't there, so I got assigned to another officer whose partner wasn't there, worked with this officer one time and during this time he was driving and I was the passenger officer and we were driving down the road and we saw a couple. It was a female black and a male white and they were holding hands. And he says my parents taught me better than that. And I go what do you mean? And he goes my parents taught me not to have sex with animals. Now, he had no idea that I had a sister, taught me not to have sex with animals. Now, he had no idea that I had a sister, foster sister, who was Black.

Speaker 3: 14:57

At the time I had been dating for two years, a female Black deputy sheriff who had been born and raised in South LA and really helped me to understand the police community relationship and the what had caused it to deteriorate to the point that it had. I mean, we used to go every Sunday, we'd go to our Aunt Edna's in Inglewood and I was being exposed to food I'd never eaten before. You know, you know the collard greens and her. You know I loved her peach cobbler, oh my goodness. But you know I was shocked that just because I looked the way that I look, just assumed that I had the same belief system that he did. And this was a concern because in law enforcement, especially in the culture back in the early 90s, you can't just go running and, oh, this officer said this, let's be honest, you can't do that. You know you'll be ostracized and you know it won't be long until it's impossible for you to continue with your career, absolutely. But I knew I didn't want to work with this guy, but I knew that he was representative of a certain percentage of the officers, because really what you have to be concerned about is that people's attitudes and beliefs impact their actions, yeah, the decisions they make, yeah, and I'm like I can't be working the same radio car with this guy because I don't know what he'll do based on that type of a belief system.

Speaker 3: 16:20

You know, it was a challenging time because, like I said, the riots had just just occurred and people hated us, certainly hated police officers that looked like me, and you know you can respond to that in different ways and once again it goes back to it's not about what happens to you or how you're being treated, it's how you respond to that. And what I saw was a need for the community to understand that I did not see them as the enemy and I needed to engage with them. So they understood that, but, more importantly, that they understood that I shouldn't be seen as the enemy. So you know, I used to take the time when I had it to go into the projects and I would throw the football with the kids.

Speaker 3: 17:05

And you know these kids they're living in these gang infested areas and there will be a day it's not if it's when they're going to be confronted with having to make a decision on whether they're going to enter the gang or what have you. And if and if any way I could touch one of them where they said you know, I remember that officer, one injured. He was a good guy. All cops are bad and that may influence their decision on what they do when that time comes. That's well worth my time, and I used to get ridiculed for it, you know, I just thought it was important.

Speaker 2: 17:38

By the other officers. You were ridiculed by the other officers.

Speaker 3: 17:41

Yeah, right, you know, because they needed to see. I don't care where you grow up, we have more in common than we have. That's different, 100% yes.

Speaker 3: 17:49

And the one thing that I would say made me successful in my law enforcement career was my understanding that we are all driven by the same emotions. It's about appealing to people's emotions, those core, raw emotions, and if you can do that, you can oftentimes get voluntary compliance from people that even are the most hardened criminals, because we're all the same, we really are, and my father used to tell me he said, son, you're an unbelievably driven young man and always were as a young boy. That's why you had the opportunities you had in ice hockey and you played hockey at the level you played and he goes. Had you been in an environment similar to the places you're policing, your leadership probably would have driven you to be the leader of the gang.

Speaker 2: 18:34

Of the gang yeah, I mean same skills, just different environment, and you would have driven you to be the leader of the gang. Of the gang, yeah, I mean you same skills, just different environment, and you would have been the leader there. Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 3: 18:40

You have to understand that. So you and the leader of the gang, you're pretty much cut from the same cloth, my friend, just different environments. Yeah, that's how you approach it.

Speaker 4: 18:49

Yeah, different influences you had. You know your parents were incredible role models for you. And, wow, is your book already out for people to purchase.

Speaker 3: 18:58

Yep, it'll be out in September. I'm actually going to make an announcement. I do a syndicated. I'm a co-host on a syndicated radio show. I'll be making the live announcement on that.

Speaker 2: 19:10

Oh well, wonderful. So then, for the Reignite Resilience listeners you heard it here first, on thin ice. It is coming out in September. That's awesome. Yes, love that. Congratulations. Congratulations on the book, and this looks like it creates a space to not just do training and just education within the space of law enforcement, but also just for the general public and the consumer as well, or, I guess, the citizens within the communities that you all are serving. Out of curiosity, my own curiosity for you, jeff, I would like to see or hear from you what was the one thing that you learned out of your 33 years of experience. What's the one thing that resonates with you today that you either have instilled in your son or that has changed how you show up as a person every day?

Speaker 3: 19:57

Well, I would think it would have to be patience. My law enforcement career, the institution of law enforcement, is slow moving to change and it's not keeping up with the rapidly changing societal expectations of law enforcement. So you need to be patient in that of law enforcement. So you need to be patient in that, if you have the mindset that I do, where you want to perform not only individually but as a collective profession at an optimal level, you have to be patient in getting there and then being a father, you need to be patient and you need to teach patience, poison grace and be patient. And that's what I really strive for and that's really the premise behind my book. My goal is to enlighten the readers, have them at the end of the tunnel here. There are things that we can do to fix this thin ice that we're standing on and hopefully that law enforcement takes the opportunity to navigate that and control and dictate how these changes will occur, rather than have them imposed on them.

Speaker 2: 21:12

Absolutely Patience. Patience it's not what I would have imagined, but I think that's great. It makes complete sense, starting from an experience or an interaction that you had at a younger age looking at excessive force and full-fledged in it in the trenches and learning so much and having such an impact on the communities that you were able to serve during the time that you served in law enforcement. Thank you for that and thank you for continuing to do the work.

Speaker 4: 21:37

Yeah, make a difference, incredible, Incredible.

Speaker 2: 21:40

I love that. Well, we will make sure on Thin Ice, will it be available on Amazon and online bookstores?

Speaker 3: 21:46

It'll be on every platform. You'll be able to go to Barnes Noble and buy it.

Speaker 2: 21:50

Beautiful Barnes, Noble Amazon. We will make sure that we drop a link and we'll update the show notes after the release in September so our listeners can get a copy of On Thin Ice, Thank you, thank you. Thank you, Jeff, for joining us. If our listeners want to get in touch with you, what's the best thing to do? Website, email, how is the best way that they can connect with you?

Speaker 3: 22:11

Well, on social media. You can go to Jeff Wenninger at either Facebook or LinkedIn and I respond to all messages In regards to the book. If you want to find out more about the book, you can go to onthinicebookcom, and when you go there you can get put on the mailing list. So you'll get a hard copy signed book, as well as other gifts that are driven by the spirit of the book. Love it.

Speaker 2: 22:45

Love that. Who doesn't love some swag? That's awesome. We will make sure that we add that link on finicebookcom We'll add that in our show notes. Jeff, is there anything that you would like to leave our listeners with that we have not had a chance to touch on yet today?

Speaker 3: 23:00

Well, no, I just. I think it's important that everybody, regardless of what your, your desires or goals or aspirations are, is that you, you always maintain your focus and be be true to yourself and your passion and in doing that, don't get overwhelmed in regards to ignoring the time you need to take to take care of yourself, because you can only be as good as you are at taking care of yourself. That's huge.

Speaker 2: 23:27

Fabulous. I think that's a fabulous place for us to land and end it Absolutely. Thank you so much. Yes, thank you. Thank you for taking the time out to join us. Thank you for giving us insight into your background, your story and sharing some information about your book as well Really excited to get a hold of that and start reading it and diving in. And thank you for sharing just your insight with our listeners. It's been really great conversation. So thank you so much.

Speaker 3: 23:53

Thank you for having me, it was good.

Speaker 2: 23:54

Yeah, absolutely, and you all know. If you're looking for more information on Reignite Resilience, head on over to reigniteresiliencecom or find us on Facebook or Instagram at Reignite Resilience Podcast. Until next time, we will see you all soon.

Speaker 1: 24:06

Bye everyone. Thank you for joining us today on the Reignite Resilience Podcast. We hope you had some aha moments and learned a few new real life ideas. To fuel the flames of passion, please subscribe on your favorite streaming platform, like or download your favorite episodes and, of course, share with your friends and family. We look forward to seeing you again next time on Reignite Resilience.